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water heater help??
Last Post 09-08-2010 07:45 AM by gmaint. 16 Replies.
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bhuddahUser is Offline
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08-27-2010 07:05 PM
    In the past few days when the hot water is accessed by faucet, dishwasher, washing machine I'm getting a gurgling sound from my waterheater. Like there are air bubbles rushing to the surface. Water heater is only three years old. Any ideas???
    Try walking backwards for a while it gives you a different perspective...
    gmaintUser is Offline
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    08-27-2010 07:15 PM
    gas or electric w/h? either way open the temp/ pressure valve let the pressure off, then check the thermostat setting
    Gregg M (Seabeck, WA) 20+ years of fixin
    Gary V Deutschmann SrUser is Offline
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    08-28-2010 04:51 AM
    Hi BH

    Air in the lines from Water Company maintenance?
    On Electric Water Heaters, calcium buildup on the Heating Elements causes steam and overheating of the Element.
    On Gas Water Heaters, build-up of sediment and calcium in the base causes overheating and steam from that area.

    About once a month, you should drain a few gallons from the tank via the lower drain valve.
    Semi-test the Temperature and Pressure Relief Valve by opening it to flush out deposits that build up in it.
    If you live in a high calcium area, it's a good idea to remove and clean the electrical elements about once a year.

    TTUL
    Gary
    If at first you don't succeed, let somebody try who knows what they are doing!
    Gerry_DUser is Offline
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    08-28-2010 08:22 AM
    Gary,
    IMHO: the "steam" will rapidly condense back into water if there ever is any.
    The surrounding water would have to be in excess of 212 degrees Fahrenheit or in excess of 100 degrees Celsius for it to remain as steam. If that would happen, the pressure/temperature relief valve would have released.
    More than likely it is/was air as a result of water company maintenance.

    Another possibility is the release of soluble gasses in the water as a by-product of heating, like chlorine.

    Case in point if you ever had a water bed and had it filled so there was no air pockets in it only to find that a year later there's all sorts of air bubbles in it, a sealed plastic mattress.  These are a result of the gasses in the water slowly escaping into the sealed mattress.

    Personally, I find new air pockets in my baseboard hot-water heating nearly every year and that is a sealed pressurized system, only connected to the public water system by a check valve and pressure regulator.

    Also you said test the pressure relief valve, good idea, but if never done before, that too can have deposits and will start leaking. If that happens, letting the release test tab snap closed may sometimes correct the problem, but it's a sure sign that there are deposits in and around it and it may need replacing. They can be had at most plumbing supply stores, Lowes and Home Depot. They are also easy to replace, only tools needed are a pipe wrench and some Teflon tape. But one must be sure to get one with the SAME Pressure and Temperature ratings as the old one. Of course, turning off the supply water is a good idea unless one wants an impromptu shower!
    This community is the sum of the knowledge of all.
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    bhuddahUser is Offline
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    08-28-2010 10:13 AM
    ok thanks, I'll try draining the water and sediments out of the tank first since that's the easiest check.Let ya know how I make out, but am still open to as many suggestions as I can get as plumbing issues are not a specialty of mine.
    Try walking backwards for a while it gives you a different perspective...
    Gerry_DUser is Offline
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    08-28-2010 07:42 PM
    Ya' know, re-thinking this a little bit....
    there may be some minor truth to the "boiling water" scenario.

    (Gary got me thinking, a hard thing to do, but he's good at making people think!)

    Thinking outside the box here, if one's water pressure is pretty high and it is an electric water heater that is in the on state or a gas water heater that has just shut off, the water in the immediate vicinity of the hottest surface may be on the verge of boiling. Then by reducing the pressure, drawing water from a tap, the water next to the hottest surface may indeed boil momentarily. This would possibly exhibit the symptoms you had described.

    If you have a known high water pressure problem and have a regulator installed, it would prevent the water in the hot water heater from moving backwards towards the mains when it naturally expands with heat. Of course the water pressure would not be above 90 PSI because of the blow off valve on the water heater, and I'm not absolutely sure of the pressure inside the water heater and the heat of the hottest surface generating the temporary boiling condition.

    Possible solutions would be the addition of an expansion tank on the cold water inlet, lowering the temperature setting a bit and most definitely flushing the tank to rid it of sediments.

    The sediment problem is more problematic with gas water heaters. They have the burner at the bottom of the tank and that is where the majority of heat transfer occurs. Add some sediment and the transfer of heat to the water is inhibited. The water within the sediment is much hotter than the water right above it in the tank, reduce the pressure and that water in the sediment boils, possibly giving off the sounds you hear.

    Conversely, any deposits on the heating elements of an electric water heater would act in the same way, IMHO: to a lesser degree, but I'm not "absolutely" sure, not ever having any electric water heaters in my places of residence.

    MY "ultimate" way to clean a water heater of sediments would be to first turn off the electricity of gas to it.  

    Attach a hose to the drain valve and run that hose to a destination, like a floor drain, lower than the water heater. Drain off the water and sediments for a few minutes, this will cool the tank and elements. Shut off the cold water feed, (and if you have a valve on the hot side close it as well), open the pressure relief valve's tab for a few minutes to allow air to enter the tank and water to continue out of the tank drain valve. Then remove the pressure relief valve. Now is the best time to replace it, replacement is "recommended" every two years in areas with hard water. You should have one on hand with the same parameters of the original one, temperature and pressure. When the tank is empty and the pressure relief valve is out, turn on the cold water feed again to "stir up" the muck at the bottom and flush it out the drain valve. Don't overdo it, the tank drain valve will be by gravity and the cold water input is under pressure so you could potentially "fill" the tank and have water come out the pressure relief valve port! Watch the drain hose water, after two or three cycles of the cold water feed on and off, the muck should have mostly been stirred up and should have been washed out.
    If you have an electric water heater, you "may" want to remove the elements and attempt cleaning them and re-installing them. I have never done this as all my water heaters have been gas. It shouldn't be that difficult, but care should be taken with the flat rubber seals around some types or the torquing of the screw in type elements. Also re-torquing the four per element fastening screws to the type with a rubber gasket. Teflon tape should be used on the screw-in type elements. Don't forget to re-attach the wires. 
    When everything is flushed out, re-install or install a new pressure relief valve, use Teflon tape on the threads. Open the test lever on the valve. Start the flow of cold water slowly, making a last check for any final muck that may come out the drain hose. Close off the tank drain valve, and continue filling the tank with the cold valve at about 1/2 open. When you see water starting to come out the pressure relief valve, close that valve's test lever. Open the hot water valve on the heater to the rest of the house if you have one. Then one by one, open the valves for hot water in every faucet of the house, bathrooms and kitchen, etc, to get any air out of the system. When the air has been purged, open the cold water feed fully, turn on the gas and re-light the water heater or if electric, turn the breaker back on.

    Now that is the way I would do it, others may have had more experience and offer short-cuts, but again, that is the way I would do it.

    This community is the sum of the knowledge of all.
    Only we must communicate that knowledge to each other via this forum.
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    Cordially,

    EZgoingUser is Offline
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    08-28-2010 09:26 PM
    Bhuddah, you never answered Gregg's question as to you having a gas or electric unit...
     
    Also, are you on a city (public) or a well water system?
     
    If on a well, what has the rain fall been for your area this year?  (In our area, we are down by several inches)..  and no, I'm not suggesting your running out of water (yet anyway.. LOL).
     
    I know, sounds like strange questions but they have their reason... honest.
     
    One last thing... Let the cold water run for about 4-5 minutes, let the hot water run till it's hot and then draw a glass of cold water and a glass of hot water (clear glass) and set them on the counter.. Is there any cloudy water in either of the glasses?  Does this cloudiness clear up from the bottom up of the glass over the next 2 minutes or so?
     
    Please report back when you can..
     
    Gerry D., you mention air in your heating system... In case you didn't know, they make an auto venting system for just that reason.
     
    http://www.maid-o-mist.com/autoair.html 
     
     
    No. 71 Auto-Vent®No. 66 Auto-Vent®
     
    It goes in at the high spot in the system where all zones are mixed into one, usually on an elbow, and it will automatically open to vent collected air.. then close once water is sensed.  If your system has one of those coin valves at a high spot, you can usually replace it with one of these (stubby or short in size if need be) units.. You will need to know the pressure your system runs at and they usually come in 1/8" and 1/4" pipe thread.  If the local big box doesn't have them (I've never looked to be honest), then a plumbing supply shop will.
     
     
    Auto-Vent® Applications for Venting Baseboard Radiators
     
     
    I have one on my boiler in the utility room (single floor for this heating system so it's the high spot) and after a refill, open the coin valves to get the majority of the air out, then let the auto-vent take over and now, unless you listen for the draft inducer or the burner kick on, you would never know I had baseboard heat.. quiet as a mouse with zero air in the lines.
     
    Just trying to help you both..
     
    Ez
     
     
    Remember, there is no handyman problem that a judicious application of money can't fix. Bradford Co. Pa.

    Gary V Deutschmann SrUser is Offline
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    08-29-2010 09:38 AM
    HI BH

    There is one other thing I forgot to mention. Not that it has to do with air in the system.
    I will always fill a couple of clearish gallon jugs from the lower spigot first then drain the rest to the floor drain.
    If that first or first and second gallon you drain, remains whiteish and/or cloudy looking, this is a good sign that the magnesium rod is not functioning, gone, or otherwise useless. Good idea to replace it with a new one.

    TTUL
    Gary
    If at first you don't succeed, let somebody try who knows what they are doing!
    craigUser is Offline
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    08-29-2010 03:00 PM
    Gary raises a good point about flushing water heaters.  I do mine every six months.  When I lived in northern Illinois I had a basement and would pour a few cups of chlorine bleach into the sump pump and let it sit for about an hour, then flush the water heater into the sump pump and rinse all those goobers out.  When I first did my parents house, there were enough of those flakes (limestone?) to fill about 200 of those snow globes ya shake up to make it look like a winter scene.

    ******************************************************************************************

    On another level and to reinforce the need to flush the water heaters on a regular basis (3, 6, or 12 month interval):

    Earlier this year, I was called by a rather old 'lady' complaining about not having any hot water.  She had a 50 gallon electric water heater.  She is the only occupant living there.  She's a widow and all her children had long since moved out and have their own teenage kids.  This water heater was into its 10th year of life.

    The first step I made was to flush her water heater.  I made voltage checks on her elements and everything came out just randy (no offense to you Canadiens named Randy).  I thought I had everything corrected.

    First call - "Yeah!  I have hot water!  I can finally take a bath!"  Great! I thought.  Earned those peanut butter & jelly sandwiches and the glass of milk.

    Then came the second call mid-morning the nest day - "Do you have water?  Oh?!  You do?  Well, I don't."  So, feeling like a schlump, I went back to fix it right this time.  I told her give me this last chance, no chrage to you.  If it doesn't work when I leave or fails again in 7 days, I'll buy you a new water heater.

    When I got there, I saw what had coagulated in her lawn/sidewalk/parkway area.  She lives in a town house with a front yard that is about 12 to 15 feet from the front of her house to the street.  It was dang near coated with a Jell-O like coating and a bunch of flakes encapsulated in it.

    So, again I killed the power, drained her tank again and this time I pulled the elements out to clean them off.  They were literally loaded with that goop.  Picture coconut Jell-O and you'll begin to get the idea of what I was looking at on her front yard as well as what had solidified on those two elements. 

    It wasn't white...but somewhat clear...almost like petroleum jelly but not as sticky.  The more I drained and filled and drained and filled and drained her tank...the thicker the stuff got.  I've NEVERseen that kind of stuff come out of a water heater before.  I finally got her tank cleared of that goop by mixing some citric acid and water into a 5 gallon bucket and then pouring the mixture through a funnel atop the orifice where the sacrificial anode is threaded through and using city water to fill/flush the tank.
    I installed a new anode and gave her new elements (had them in stock from a previous job) and filled her tank, bled it, then turned the power on.  Waited 45 minutes and left when I knew she had water flowing throughout her house.

    While waiting we got to talking about her water so I could figure it out.  She also had some air blasts in the hot water lines...especially when there were prolonged periods of not using the water.

    *****************************************************************************************
    Closing note and FYI - two weeks later, I wound up buying her a new friggin 50 gallon water heater ($380 and no charge to her).  The previous owner had made an illegal splice off one phase of the many doubled breakers and had hidden it where the home inspectors didn't see it - I found it and was PO'd!).  The existing wire to the water heater was a twisted strand type and most of the strands had corroded away so her breaker began to trip.  Yeah - it had nothing to do with the original problem, but something to keep in mind.
    If you make a continuity check between the output of a breaker and the business end of the appliance all ya need is one strand of a scrawny copper wire and your meter tells you that continuity is good.  Not enough for the current draw though.

    Craig
    Navy veteran (July, 1980- August, 2007)

    Gerry_DUser is Offline
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    08-30-2010 08:05 PM
    EZ, I tried to answer you last night, but the darn network or forum was on the fritz and it didn't take.

    I have two of the air bleeders in my furnace area, one right on the furnace. I do hear them pop off from time to time for a second in the winter.

    I tried one of those on the second floor loop. It was ineffective.
    I then tried to make an artificial high point with two 45 degree elbows in the line to meet at a 90 degree elbow with a threaded port for one. Ineffective.
    I even tried a 1/4" threaded 45 degree fitting to put the darn thing vertical. Ineffective.

    The final resolution is what you see below:


    I think the heating system is haunted...
    This community is the sum of the knowledge of all.
    Only we must communicate that knowledge to each other via this forum.
    Participate, Teach and Learn

    Cordially,

    EZgoingUser is Offline
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    08-31-2010 07:28 AM
    Craig, there are several different types of bacteria that are mainly clear and often a real bear to get totally rid of.  A simple shock of a strong chlorine mix will usually only scratch the surface of most of these types of bacteria.  Most of the time, a scrubbing with a brush or other physical removal from the various parts is needed, followed by a strong shocking and a few rinses..
     
    I ran into one that had a pink hue to it in one of the water plants of a park the company had just bought shortly before I left the company.  We sent out a sample for analysis but had not gotten the report back before I changed jobs.. so never did find out what exactly it was.. I 'do know', we had to clean the living crap out of every pipe, valve and tank in the water plant, then sanitize everything.. Residents were NOT happy campers as we would shut the water system down for 6 hours a day, for 4 days in a row during the cleaning process.
     
    Gerry, I don't want to hijack this thread... I'll send you an email in the next day or so.. Just see if I can help at all..
     
    Gotta go for now.. later
     
    Ez
     
    Remember, there is no handyman problem that a judicious application of money can't fix. Bradford Co. Pa.

    gmaintUser is Offline
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    08-31-2010 08:21 AM
    anyone wonder if the OP will give us a reply? I really need a Krispy Kreme or two.

    EDIT, Dang I missed it Reply was tucked in the 28th list.
    Gregg M (Seabeck, WA) 20+ years of fixin
    Gerry_DUser is Offline
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    08-31-2010 04:15 PM
    Whoops, didn't mean to do a hijacking, my apologies, everyone.
    The original message I had typed also addressed the water heater issue as well, but when it would not post due to difficulties, my second attempt didn't include that part.
    Again, everyone, my apologies.
    This community is the sum of the knowledge of all.
    Only we must communicate that knowledge to each other via this forum.
    Participate, Teach and Learn

    Cordially,

    scooterdownUser is Online
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    09-04-2010 06:19 PM

    Sounds like its "water heater percolating"

    Tank has a build up of debris taking up space at the bottom.

    When the H W H goes on the debris and water expand and percolate.
    Stop The Cry'n and Do Some Try'n....... Check the Obvious and Simple First....... Geneva IL / Gold Canyon AZ .................................. Master Life Member/ Member Since 1998
    scw60User is Offline
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    09-04-2010 11:22 PM
    Don't want to take much time up here, But I too have been in the Plumbing business dor about 25yrs!!! Everybody that has given their advise here, Is right on the money with the solutions & turn outs!!! Keep up the good work fellows !! Your givin out grat advise solutions most of all helping the other people out !!! Thw way things are now days, every thing helps & is a blessing to get thungs done!!
    Samuel C. Walker
    bhuddahUser is Offline
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    09-08-2010 07:18 AM
    ok here is the answers to your questions and suggestions. It is a 40 gallon natural gas water heater. I flushed out the unit and after it was drained and flushed I turned off the water supply and went and opened all the faucets to drain the entir house, once this was done I turned the water back on and started upstairs turning off faucets. I shut the valve on water last. So far so good the gurgling is gone. Thanks for all your help fellow members...
    Try walking backwards for a while it gives you a different perspective...
    gmaintUser is Offline
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    09-08-2010 07:45 AM
    bhudduh,

      Thanks for the feedback. I highly recommend that water heaters be flushed at least once a year. If you are in a hard water area flush it twice a year. Since yours is a gas heater i recommend the twice a year flush anyway. Any debris that settles in the tank will slow down the heat transfer from the burner.
    Gregg M (Seabeck, WA) 20+ years of fixin
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