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Originally posted by: -Dean- on 2/27/2007 2:36:00 PM
quote: Originally posted by Bob from Necedah:
Please take a minute to drop down to the 'New Members' area of this board and introduce yourself. We are a motley crew and somehow manage to muddle our way through a project with just each others help.
Yes RC,
Please introduce yourself to the crowd. You certainly sound like you could offer quite a bit of incite into the multitude of quandaries we deal with everyday.
I, for one, am DAM relieved that we won't have to worry about crooked cornbread ever again! No sense living like animals, for Pete's sake!
The great thing about getting advice from so many helpful people? We can also blame our failed projects on that advice, as well!
-Welcome-
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Originally posted by: Bob from Necedah on 2/27/2007 11:57:57 AM
Mr.RulyCutter,
Thanks a bunch for setting all of us straight on the atmospheric pressure thing. I told Zipper right up front that his cornbread problem had to do with clouds going over his house. 
Please take a minute to drop down to the 'New Members' area of this board and introduce yourself. We are a motley crew and somehow manage to muddle our way through a project with just each others help. We try really hard not to get on each others nerves, but sometimes it is impossible. Therefore, humor takes over and helps settle things down.
Enjoy yourself here....just don't take us real seriously.
Think Spring!
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Originally posted by: jimjim on 2/27/2007 4:09:23 PM
RulyCutter and I have exchanged several emails since Dean wrote me. Ruly believes temperature will have no effect. I, of course, disagree. We do agree that in the vast majority of situations the effect will be trivial. And, I believe that in all but the worst extremes it will be less that from ordinary leveling devices and at distances greater than 20 or so feet it will have less error than other methods. Certainly as the distance becomes great the water level will be more accurate than any other method.
This senerio is an attempt to show those who are still skeptical that water temperature differences between the two sides of the system will create a small error.
Are you familiar with the term pig as used in by pipeline people? It's a cylindrical plug that fits the inside diameter of a pipeline. http://www.ppsa-online.com/about-pigs.php They can be used to separate one liquid from another in the pipeline.
Imagine a frictionless pig as shown in the figure below. There's a column of mercury on the left and a column of water on the right. At the start, the pig/tube is clamped so it cannot move, and the condition is as shown in the figure. When the clamp is released, do you think he water will push the mercury up the left tube until the two liquids are level? No. What will actually happen is, the mercury will rise in the right side pushing the water up and out of the tube. Now, imagine cold water was as heavy as mercury -- the same thing would happen. Of course cold water is only ever-so-slightly heavier than warm water so the effect is slight, but exists, none the less. 
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Originally posted by: jimjim on 2/27/2007 3:40:22 PM
> Jim's mistake may have been as simple as forgetting to
>multiply by the 72" height he had choosen. Since he
>didn't tell us how he arrived at his figures, it is very hard
>to speculate. And that's why I put in the details of how
>I arrived at the 1/2" figure.
Now that you‘ve said that twice I'm compelled to speak up.
Here is what I said in my email that Dean posted above:
“. . where the distance from the level of the water to the lowest point in the tubing is 6 feet and the difference between the shaded area and the sunlit area goes from freezing to 100°F it would create an error of one-half inch â€
Help me understand how my 1/2 inch is wrong and your 1/2 inch is right.
When you say:
>I have taken showers in the outdoors where the water came
>from a cold spring but was too hot to have on your skin
You have taken showers outdoors when it was freezing? Are you a member of the polar bear club?
I stick by my opinion that the scenario I described is unrealistic.
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Originally posted by: jimjim on 2/27/2007 9:51:40 PM
quote: Water in dark colored hoses can get quite warm indeed, just as the temperature in a closed car can get hot enough to be lethal to infants or pets left in the car.
Not when the temperature outside the car is 32 degrees
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Originally posted by: jimjim on 2/27/2007 4:42:41 PM
Well, certainly we’ve pushed this to yet another extreme with black pipe. You didn't say what the ambient temperature was in the afternoon when you were taking the showers. But, I have to wonder if, even black pipe with an ambient temperature of freezing, the water in the pipe could reach 100 degrees. But, even if it could the water level would have to have all of one-half of it at freezing and all of the other half at 100 to cause the 1/2" error. This seems very unlikely and if it isn't exactly 50-50 the error will be less.
There is simply something wrong with the statements of people who got nearly an inch error. It’s not plausible for a person on this forum working on a home project to get an error that large. What I suspect happened was they left a reservoir type level overnight and did not reestablish the reference. After long periods the mechanics of the device change. In the overnight anecdote the ambient temperature the evening before was probably warmer than the next morning. This would change the volume of water in the system due to expansion. It would be further changed by shrinking/expanding of the mechanical parts of the rig – tubing, bucket, etc. It’s best when using a reservoir to reestablish the reference when the surrounding temperature changes significantly. If a simple (tube only) system is being used and both ends were reset, one inch is not believable. If only one end were checked and the other left “taped†where it was the night before then tubing (particularly a garden hose will become soft and hard with temperature and thus change its volume). However, this causes no error if both ends are adjusted.
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Originally posted by: Bob Hoyer on 2/27/2007 4:13:08 PM
quote: Originally posted by jimjim:
Help me understand how my 1/2 inch is wrong and your 1/2 inch is right.
When you say:
>I have taken showers in the outdoors where the water came
>from a cold spring but was too hot to have on your skin
You have taken showers outdoors when it was freezing? Are you a member of the polar bear club? ...
Jim, first of all I sincerely apologize for having missed your statement about 1/2". When I read it I thought you were saying that 1/16" would be the maximum possible error.
As to the hot shower thing -- I was helping a friend we call "Crazy Bill Combs" with some construction in the Ozarks. He had a considerable amount of land on a hillside and was building a house. His source of water was a spring about a quarter mile up the hill. The spring water was very cold. From there to his site he had 3/4" black pipe simply laid on the ground. The morning and evenings were in the high thirties or low forties but the afternoon sun was hot. When there was no flow that water got way too hot to touch, far hotter than a domestic hot water heater would be set. If you let it flow you could get a comfortably warm, even hot, shower.
Water in dark colored hoses can get quite warm indeed, just as the temperature in a closed car can get hot enough to be lethal to infants or pets left in the car. They are not perishing because the temperature got to 100°F. Their body temperature is within two degrees of that.
I believe it is because of some rather extreme temperature differences from sun to shade that people have reported errors of 1/2" in using a water level. I also believe it is not that hard to avoid such errors if you know they are possible.
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Originally posted by: eeyore on 2/28/2007 10:23:04 AM
HEY ZIP!
I never saw the post where you actually tried your cornbread! How'd it turn out? LOL
eeyore
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Originally posted by: Bob Hoyer on 2/28/2007 10:04:30 AM
Jim,
Why do you keep ranting about 32°???
Temperature differential is the only thing that matters. It could be 65° in the shade and 140° in a dark container in the hot sun. That's a 75° differential. Run the numbers.
Now I am out of here. I am tired of arguing about it. We can just agree to disagree about whether a temperature differential is possible.
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Originally posted by: ZIPPER on 2/28/2007 3:18:18 PM
Yo, jimjim....Back off hear?
As far as I'm concern whether or not you are new here you've done gone and made a fun thread to read and participate in some of a qiss'n contest.
I don't know where you started reading in this post, started sometime ago, about my cornbread problem but you should go back and start again at the beginning. As you read through the thread you'll notice members taking an objection to some one's else's input and later offering an apology for not understanding what was written or just plain pok'n fun at someone.
Ya should have seen the thread we had going on 220-440 volts and current flow. That one was a real hoot. I think it was PaPaDan that got that one started. One of the other members, TheOwlady had saved it on her computer but that crashed, loosing it. It had all the bright light bulbs here joining in.
We are a wide assortment of folks (boys and girls) from all parts of the country from some being wet behind the ears to being close to the pearly gates. I guess what I'm saying is I for one don't take kindly to "better than thou" members. Most of them don't stay long so I don't know if you'll get a chance to read this. If not, happy trails into the sunset.
You can always re-register with a different user name and maybe no one will recognize your comments to others. It's your choice.
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Originally posted by: jimjim on 2/28/2007 12:13:44 PM
quote: Why do you keep ranting about 32°???
Ranting? First you repeatedly post that I screwed up my illustration when I hadn't, and now you hurl pejorative remarks. Are you popular here? If so, maybe you just don't like new people, or perhaps having your incorrect statements pointed out. I appreciate you withdrawing from the discussion -- hope I can depend on it.
I keep referring to freezing because it was the temperature in my scenario where you keep saying I'm not being realistic, while bringing up things that are different from my illustration.
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Originally posted by: ZIPPER on 2/28/2007 12:09:06 PM
eeyore,
It turns out on the level now and taste good.
The only problem I'm having now is the timing is different when I use a light colored pan and a dark one. I've got the oven temp set the same for both. The dark one come out quicker.
Do you think I can ask Bob Hoyer and jimjim to discuss this civilly?
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Originally posted by: ZIPPER on 2/28/2007 4:54:30 PM
No jimjim, we are self moderating....you just don't get it do you? And I'd bet you didn't go back to the start of the thread either to re-read the tone.
Your withdrawal accepted.
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Originally posted by: jimjim on 2/28/2007 4:08:41 PM
quote: Yo, jimjim....Back off hear?
I'm confused by your post. Are you the moderator of this forum? If not, I'd say you're out of line.
If you are the moderator I'm confused why you're jousting me when, as far as I know or I intended, I did not say anything untoward, unpleasant of disrespectful to anyone before the bob person made his post dissing me. Then, instead of getting upset with the provocateur you got upset with me. I hope you can see why that's confusing.
quote: you've done gone and made a fun thread to read and participate in some of a qiss'n contest.
As I said, I don’t see myself as the one who began the “giss’n.†I certainly didn’t intend to.
As for this being an entertainment thread, I only posted here initially to correct erroneous statements made twice about my email that were posted here. Then, thinking there was a genuine desire to understand water levels, I tried to present posts clarifying my understanding of them. If I brought serious posts into an entertainment thread, I apologize and will at this point withdraw as well.
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Originally posted by: Bob from Necedah on 2/28/2007 5:42:03 PM
O.K.
Back to the cornbread thing!!
Hey Zip,
I use Jiffy mix or just plain old cornbread mix and to it add 1/3 milk (just out of the fridge temperature LOL) and one egg (also just out of the fridge temperature)
Then I use a metal pan, not to light, not to dark and Pam or grease it well. The mix is quite stiff so ya need to use a rubber spatula to get it all out. Bang the pan on the counter top to LEVEL it in the pan or NOT  . Then.....here is the tricky part.....leave it set out for five minutes or so. It seems to gas up or somethin' and gets just a bit airy  . You could have the oven preheatin' during this time. Then pop that puppy in the preheated 400 degree oven. Let it cook for 19 minutes, but check it at 17 minutes because of oven temp. differences. Watch for the cornbread to pull away from the sides of the well greased pan!! Mmmmmmm, I'm salavating just thinkin' about it.
The rest should be golden brown. It's Done!!
Slap some butter on it and your favorite topping. I'm partial to a 50-50 mix of store brand low cal syrup and REAL maple syrup.
Hmmmmmm Good!
But, I'm a thinkin' that ya Texans have a secret or trick to makin' yours. I'll bet that there is steak involved? Let us know, I for one, always like to improve my cornbread. And ya know what.......I could care less if it were LEVEL or not!!
LOL ROTFLMAO.
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Originally posted by: -Dean- on 2/28/2007 5:05:15 PM
quote: Originally posted by ZIPPER:
The only problem I'm having now is the timing is different when I use a light colored pan and a dark one. The dark one come out quicker.
Do you think I can ask Bob Hoyer and jimjim to discuss this civilly?
Well Zip,
In my opinion, The dark pan cooks quicker because dark surfaces absorb heat better than light surfaces. This causes the dark pan to expand more laterally thus creating more cooking surface exponentailly. This extra surface allows the cornbread mixture to spread further and thinner which hastens the cooking process.
The actual calculations for this can be achieved using a variation of the Pi R Square formula.
Just change Pi to cornbread.
....take it boys.
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Originally posted by: -Dean- on 2/28/2007 8:35:18 PM
Just recieved an email from Jim. I think you guys hurt his feelings. 
quote: From an email by jimjim
Hi Dean
From my perspective your forum buddies aren't very hospitable to guests.
Hey, when were you guys gunna tell me I was your buddy???
Anyone care to read my reply?
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Originally posted by: Daniel A. Stevens on 2/28/2007 6:31:36 PM
How could such an innocent thread turn into such a fiasco?
ZIPPER,
I agree with Deans idea about the dark pan,that makes perfect sense to me.
Also you are correct,we are a self moderating group,when anyone steps out of line there will always be another there to try to settle things peacefully,to you sir you have my RESPECT for that.
Bob,popular or not I see,nor have I read anything wrong with any of your posts,they all seemed perfectly in tune with the subject matter,other than the fact that we started with uneven cornbread.
jimjim,these guys are all "VERY" knowledgeable,in whatever field that is being discussed,no one was putting you down they were merely asking questions about your posts to get a better understanding of where you were coming from.We have to mix humor with our topics or we will all go nuts.
Now as for anyone else who I've missed you have my apoligies for leaving you out,but I don't want to see anyone else get urinated on.
"Just my luck I get $29.00 worth of opinions & only get 10 cents worth of information"
Dan
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Originally posted by: little bubba on 2/28/2007 5:49:33 PM
cant we all just get along all this talk about cornbread is making me hungry now whoes cooken the pinto beans and hamhawks and fried tators with some onions mmm mmmm
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Originally posted by: EZgoing on 2/28/2007 8:57:47 PM
I for one would be interested Dean... Your welcome to PM me if you rather.
If it came to me, I do believe I would have said the following...
The people here can be very friendly, helpful and hospitable...
BUT, they require you to be civil, understanding and "show respect" of others, their ideas and opinions.
If you don't, you will be on the outside looking in... Pretty simple isn't it?
Just my observation from being fairly new member.
Ernie
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Originally posted by: alwaysfixingsomething on 2/28/2007 8:47:54 PM
If we tell you that, your head will get too big. LOL
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Originally posted by: RulyCutter on 3/1/2007 7:04:12 AM
quote:
Well Zip,
In my opinion, The dark pan cooks quicker because dark surfaces absorb heat better than light surfaces. This causes the dark pan to expand more laterally thus creating more cooking surface exponentailly. This extra surface allows the cornbread mixture to spread further and thinner which hastens the cooking process.
And now you shall know....the rest of the story.
The Dark Sucker Theory (courtesy of rec.humor.d)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For years, it has been believed that electric bulbs emit light,
but recent information has proved otherwise. Electric bulbs don't
emit light; they suck dark. Thus, we call these bulbs Dark Suckers.
The Dark Sucker Theory and the existence of dark suckers prove
that dark has mass and is heavier than light.
First, the basis of the Dark Sucker Theory is that electric bulbs
suck dark. For example, take the Dark Sucker in the room you are in.
There is much less dark right next to it than there is elsewhere. The
larger the Dark Sucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark.
Dark Suckers in the parking lot have a much greater capacity to suck
dark than the ones in this room.
So with all things, Dark Suckers don't last forever. Once they are
full of dark, they can no longer suck. This is proven by the dark spot
on a full Dark Sucker. The dark which has been absorbed is then
transmitted by pylons along to power plants where the machinery uses
fossil fuel to destroy it.
A candle is a primitive Dark Sucker. A new candle has a white wick.
You can see that after the first use, the wick turns black, representing
all the dark that has been sucked into it. If you put a pencil next to
the wick of an operating candle, it will turn black. This is because
it got in the way of the dark flowing into the candle. One of the
disadvantages of these primitive Dark Suckers is their limited range.
There are also portable Dark Suckers. In these, the bulbs can't
handle all the dark by themselves and must be aided by a Dark Storage
Unit. When the Dark Storage Unit is full, it must be either emptied
or replaced before the portable Dark Sucker can operate again.
Dark has mass. When dark goes into a Dark Sucker, friction from
the mass generates heat. Thus, it is not wise to touch an operating
Dark Sucker. Candles present a special problem as the mass must travel
into a solid wick instead of through clear glass. This generates a
great amount of heat and therefore it's not wise to touch an operating
candle. This is easily proven for lightbulbs too. When you compress a
gas, it gets hot, right? So the light bulb gets hot because of all the
dark being squished into the wires.
Also, dark is heavier than light. If you were to swim just below
the surface of the lake, you would see a lot of light. If you were to
slowly swim deeper and deeper, you would notice it getting darker and
darker. When you get really deep, you would be in total darkness. This
is because the heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the lake and the
lighter light floats at the top. The is why it is called light.
Dark Suckers are only able to suck dark in a straight line. Dark, because
of its mass, will not penetrate solid, opaque objects as it is being sucked by
a Dark Sucker. When a Dark Sucker is operating, you will notice that dark that
is behind a solid, opaque object does not flow through the object or around it
to the Dark Sucker. Some of the dark will accumulate on the side of the object
away from the Dark Sucker as the Dark Sucker attempts to pull it through the
object. These residual patches of dark are often referred to as `shadows.' Some
surfaces are able to function as secondary Dark Suckers by sucking the dark
from behind solid objects at an angle and then rerouting it to the primary Dark
Sucker. These surfaces have a property we refer to as `reflective.'
Finally, we must prove that dark is faster than light. If you were
to stand in a lit room in front of a closed, dark closet, and slowly
opened the closet door, you would see the light slowly enter the closet.
But since dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the dark leave
the closet. So next time you see an electric bulb, remember that it is
not a light emitter but a Dark Sucker.
The following line doesn't quite fit into the theory but almost does : -
Ever seen the blue glow in vacuum tubes? That's because electrons are blue.
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Originally posted by: Czarcastic on 3/1/2007 5:41:16 AM
Zip:
I always and only make my cornbread in a pre-heated cast iron skillet.
Couple of extra tablespoons of sugar in the batter to help carmelize the bottom, and some finely chopped green chilis for texture and color.
Serve warm with lightly salted room-temperature butter.
Now, to make it REALLY special, you need to serve it alongside my three-time blue ribbon award winning chili, and an ice cold brew in a frosted mug. 
oh yeah, and JimJim... it really doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. If you are correct, then be satified that you disceminated the information to those who would pay attention. You don't have to shove your knowledge down anyone's throat. We all have informaiton and experiences to share. That's why we're here.
Sometimes, someone contradicts what you are saying, and you are so sure that you are right it gets you all steamed. Let it be. We'll all have posts like that. Just keep in mind that the more good informaiton you share, the more people respect what you have to say... even if they don;t agree with you all the time.
Who knows... you may even learn something new along the way.
Thanks for hearing me out.
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Originally posted by: Daniel A. Stevens on 2/28/2007 9:56:58 PM
Dean,
As for being on the "buddy" list,do we really have to tell ya,seems that you can read between the lines.
As far as your reply,yes I'd enjoy reading it,but of course that's your choice.If anyone hurt his feelings you gotta take it in stride & run with it...not run off.
EZ,thanks for pulling me out of the same funk that jimjim is in,but it's my opinion that he brought in on himself.Which by the way is quite easy to do if you don't show due respect for others ideas & opinions (as you already pointed out).
No one here is the "ULTIMATE",on anything,but I'd dare say there is a top 5.I'll not mention names or we could start a real urinating contest.
Just my 2 & one half cents worth, Dan
"Just my luck,I get $29 worth of opinions & 10 cents of information"
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Originally posted by: greydome on 3/1/2007 12:56:53 PM
RulyCutter ,
The Dark Sucker theory is VERY interesting ! It may even start a thread like the 220 vs 440 one .
Jerry
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Originally posted by: eeyore on 3/1/2007 7:34:16 AM
Everyone has an opinion, whether right or wrong, nobody can really make the statement that their's is the absolute correct one! EVERY situation is different, and EVERY solution is different. The variables are far too numerous for a specific sulution to a problem, to work exactly the same for all problems, even though the problems appear to be identical. The information one person gives here, MAY be right for some situations, and totally wrong for others. There's absolutely NO reason to believe the info YOU give is the "gospel", even if that info is gathered from an "authority" on the subject (books, papers, professionals, etc.) sure, the "solution" works perfectly for some, but, not everyone gets the same result.
This collection of topics is a terrific place where folks can get together and SHARE their experiences and information with others, it is NOT a place for "my way is the right way".
Every opinion or idea here is helpful, whether right or wrong, it's up to each of us to decide how we use the information.
Just my 2-1/2 cents
eeyore
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Originally posted by: t keener on 3/1/2007 3:27:31 PM
quote: Originally posted by -Dean-:
The actual calculations for this can be achieved using a variation of the Pi R Square formula.
Just change Pi to cornbread.
Pi r not square. Pi r round!
-tom
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Originally posted by: -Dean- on 3/1/2007 2:43:27 PM
quote: Originally posted by EZgoing:
I for one would be interested Dean... Your welcome to PM me if you rather.
I was only going to PM anyone that wanted to hear my reply, but since we've already opened this can of worms, why not go ahead and splatter them all over the ground and roll around in them? Let's go out in a blaze of glory.
You think jimjim would approve?
Here's my reply:
quote: Jim,
The problem with a text based conversation like this forum is that you never can be sure of a persons attitude or inflection when they post. That is why it is so important to think very carefully before replying ~~ especially if you're going to flame someone in retaliation of either an actual or assumed insult or criticism.
I have been communicating through this medium for many years and have learned the HARD way to never assume someones intent without absolute certainty. I have also learned to never post something in an anonymous medium that you would not say to that person face-to-face. And it's always a great idea that when you DO decide to lash out at someone, you wait a minimum of 3 days to do so. Even though you may have been boiling mad the day you opened that letter, you would be surprised how trivial it truly seems several days later.
Another hard lesson I have learned thanks to the Internet; Whatever is posted on the Web...STAYS on the Web. Even if you retracted or deleted your comments seconds after you realised you made a mistake, if so much as ONE person got a chance to read it, it's here FOREVER! Just Google <my name> for a sampling of some of my more unflattering behavior. And now there is nothing I can do to remove any of it. And worst off, negative posts are not only non-deletable, but they multiply with freightening speed.
Humor goes a long way here too. When I'm confronted by a negative personality in a forum, I try ~~ and I said TRY ~~ to douse the flames with a touch of humor or cheeky sarcasm. Not only does it not make you look like an immature crybaby, but it really pisses off the person who's desperately trying to get your goat.
I'm not saying that you intentionally did any of these things. But consider the source. These guys have been chatting in this forum for years. Some actually know each other personally. We all know our idiosyncrasies and we tolerate them. But when the disagreements started flying, and sooner or later, they always do, rather than asking for clarification on his remark, you start your very first post with a snippy remark about Bob Hoyer belonging to the Polar Bear Club. Not the best way to make a first impression.
Even after he apologised for the misunderstanding, you continue with remarks about him being liked on the forum or not liking new people. Come on Jim, what did you expect? Even Zipper had to comment on how the thread was taking a bad turn. And every post from you since just sounds a little whiny.
I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the forum members. It would have been very easy to take a deep breath, rethink our strategy and continue the exchange of information in a respectful and adult tone. This is not just a forum for swapping ideas and solving problems, we try to have a lot of fun here as well.
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Originally posted by: alwaysfixingsomething on 3/1/2007 8:46:35 PM
Thanks Rulycutter. It all makes sensee now. Its like the darkness in my head has been sucked out by your explaination.
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Originally posted by: Daniel A. Stevens on 3/1/2007 7:05:47 PM
t keener,
I agree Pi r round...Cornbread R square.
Dan
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hey zipper my cornbread comes out great maybe you need to level your stove. it doesnt matter what kind of pan you use. mine comes out level every time. try using a 16 oz. can of applesauce next time.
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